Community Building And User-group Organizing: Mike Hall Interviews London Software Craftsmanship | SCNA 2011
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The Interviewer
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
The Guest
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
The Conversation
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Hi, I'm Mike, I'm sitting down with Sandro and Tom from the London Software Craftsmanship Group. And, excuse me, Sandro, can you tell us a little bit about London Software Craftsmanship? Sure.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
We started about August 2010, so basically it came up with an idea of myself and a friend of mine, Dave Green. So we used to meet just to talk about software and catch up and stuff. And then all of a sudden we set up, maybe it would be great if we could have more people coming along and sharing their ideas. Preferably if they come from other languages as well, not Java or other. So then we had this idea of having a group of people that could meet regularly. I took this idea to the London Java community and spoke to some of the guys who didn't know anything about craftsmanship, but they loved the idea of having a group of people, different professionals coming along and having a chat.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
And then they said, why don't you create a craftsmanship group?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
We said, we're a craftsmanship community and we're going to support you as well because we would love to attend the meetings. And that's how it started. So that night I went home, just set up the group at meetup. com, and then we announced our first meeting there.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
So you went from two people, where are you sitting now with typical attendance?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Yeah, it's crazy because when we started we didn't know exactly how to start. It's okay, we want to create this group just Dave and myself.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
So where do you go?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
From there. Because we realized that the people that we spoke to didn't know anything about craftsmanship, we thought maybe we could give a talk on craftsmanship.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
If we have like 10-15 people attending, that would be great. Well, it turned out that we had more than 100 registering to our first talk. 100. 100. Yes. Yeah, and then we were scared because I've never spoken publicly before, so geez, I can't do that. And then, so after that talk, a lot of people were very inspired in the whole thing, the whole craftsmanship thing. And then we decided to go back to our original idea. That was like having a group of people that meet regularly, and then we come up with a round table. So today, after just over a year, we have 429 members. We promoted 23 meetings, and we are growing at the speed of 15 to 20 members per month. And yeah, that's about it.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
So you've got a monthly meetup, right?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
That's... We have a few things. Every Wednesday, every second Wednesday of the month, we have our round table meetings that are by far the most popular. It's limited to 30 people. It's a group discussion. People come along. We put topics on the whiteboard.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Like a mini-on-conference?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Mini-on-conference.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So we always meet in the same company. There is a company where David used to work for that they started on the company that I used to work for. So they pay all the pizzas and beers and stuff. So we have the space after 6:30 to 9:00. So people put the topics. Then they explain what they want to discuss. It can be anything related to software development. From they want to show a piece of code or they want to discuss architecture or how to do Agile and distribute teams around the world. Anything. So... And then we vote. The most voted topics we discuss. Sometimes we split in groups. Sometimes we discuss one topic per night. Sometimes we discuss five.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So that's the round table. We have every last Wednesday of the month we have a hands-on coding session. That's limited to 40 people.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
There's always oversubscribed as well. So we always have people waiting. And we have some spare sporadic meetings like we have code retreats. We have talks and other stuff. Regular meetings we have two. And very soon we'll have three.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So two round tables a month. No. It's one round table and one hands-on session. One round table.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And then with the extremely large group, we were talking a little bit earlier about how it became too much for just two guys to manage. So you wanted to spread that out. That's where Tom comes in with the associates group. Can you explain a little bit about what the associates and then maybe Tommy can talk about what you do in that? So first, what is the idea of the associates group and then... I can explain how it came about. This came from the London Java User Group because it has 2,000 members today. So it was too much for just a few people to organize. So they decided to invite some people that could contribute but they don't need the... They are not fully committed. They contribute whenever they can.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So Tom was always one of our main members, like very active. Yeah, sure. One of the reasons why I'm an associate is because currently our Software Craftsmanship group is quite heavily sort of Java . NET based, literally because of the association to the London Java community and other communities. And we don't really have much of a Ruby presence. And so I'm one of the Ruby people that I can talk to other Ruby developers.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And I think we have enough people in the sort of Ruby industry that would be interested in Software Craftsmanship. So do you have separate meetings for these... Like is it... Because you said you have a limit of 30 but you have 600 or so registered members. Do you have a separate meeting for like at a different location or something like that for the associate groups? Yeah, we meet up as the sort of associate group. We've only had one meeting so far. So we've only done this for one month.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay. Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So we sit down, discuss ideas, the sort of... The next sort of hands-on sessions that we want to do, who wants to do them, how we can help each other with them.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And all that sort of stuff.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Yeah, we also discuss like the plans for the group as a whole, where we are taking the group. So the whole direction of the group. Because now David is moving to Italy, so it's just me from the original founders.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And so the idea that I brought to us, as you said, I want diversity.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Because David and I were Java developers. I want diversity. So there is a guy from Android community, Tom from Ruby, and then other people from Java. But I want more diversity in there.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right. So we discuss the things that Tom talked about, but also where are we going as a group?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
What are our next steps in terms of like our mentorship program that we want to do, the connections to other communities, like that's what we're doing here. So that's the things that the associates would be discussing. But as I said, there is a difference between the leadership team and the associates. The associates are... They contribute whatever they can.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Loads of people. They have great ideas, but they can't commit to the same level like David and myself commit. Every month. Sometimes many hours a month. Oh, many hours.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Weeks. Because we need to sort out all the venues, all the contacts.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So the idea with the associates is to bring people that want to help, but don't want to commit straight away.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And as soon as they start getting more involved, then we will bring them to the leadership team.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
Like full commitment. But they need to see if they want to do that first.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So that's my separate... Yeah, because I've seen that problem where sometimes people are saying, "Yes, I want to do this. " And then they get into it a little while and they're like, "Wow, this is a lot of time. " And maybe I really am not that passionate about this after all.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
It's interesting for me because I haven't really worked in a community group like this before. I've been part in this sort of higher level of it. And yeah, it's really interesting the sort of training that you get from just talking to guys like Sandra and David on organization and being able to present as well.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And learning all those skills while also helping out in the community and that sort of thing.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
It's very interesting. And I also want to introduce you later on to Ray Hightower, who has a very similar model here in Chicago for the greatest Ruby community. They're two main groups in two different cities. But we can talk about that later. And people have already seen his interview. So they know all about what he was doing. Yeah, no, it's fascinating. And you said you were also working with some other, or you've been in communications or trying to set up communications with some other user groups that are international, some in Paris and Germany and Israel. Can you tell us a little bit about how you've been working with those groups to help them or to at least connect and share?
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Sure.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So when David and I, we sat down last August, we finished our first year as a community. So we had a meeting. It's okay. We had an amazing year, amazing first year.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Where do you go from there?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So we've done a lot for our community in London. So we made it a reality. But then we realized that we were not doing much for the craftsmanship movement as a whole.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So. And we need to try to spread that. We need to make craftsmanship flourish, if you like, in other places. So part of our mission was to go to other conferences in other countries and start sharing our experience, because David and I, we couldn't even organize our own birthdays before that, right? So we're not organized of anything.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
We had no idea what we were doing and how many people would turn up, but we learned a lot in one year. In terms of finding venues, sponsors, and how to attract members. So a lot of people want to have a local community, but they don't have one.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
And they are scared to start one, because they don't know what to do.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So that was part of our mission. So I ended up going to a craftsmanship conference in Germany. And my mission, I started talking about the communities and what we were doing, and they had no community there. But then after speaking to loads of people. Five of them put themselves forward and said, like, we want to learn more. And then I ran an open space, sharing everything that we've done. And some people sat down and asked lots for me, but a few of them said, oh, I'd love to do that.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So they got together, they put in the map where they lived in Germany.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So how they could organize that themselves. How do we meet in the middle.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Exactly. Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So then they asked loads of questions and stuff. Certain things would work for them, certain things probably won't. And then they decided to do it. So there are two communities that just started. One community is starting. So one is in Munich, one is in a city that I never, I can't remember the name. And there is one in Frankfurt starting on the 3rd of December. They will have their Code Retreat in the Global Day of Code Retreat. Oh, okay.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So that would be their kickoff meeting. It's a great way to kick off. Absolutely. Self-aggressions. Self-aggressionship group. And so that was Germany. And then because we were tweeting about the whole thing. And communities and helping people. And the guys there blogged about, mentioned my name also. A guy in Paris contacted me.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So look, I was following the Twitter and stuff. So I would love to do that in Paris.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. Would you help me?
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So of course. And then we spent a few weeks exchanging emails. I was sharing with him everything that we've done, how we've done and so on. And then he invited me over to do a kickoff talk in his community. And in the first meeting they had like 55 people. Turning up. And now just a month and a half later they have 125 members. I think these kinds of stories are fascinating where you have an idea and you just want to sit down and you're like, "Hey, I'm going to do something fun. " And then it just flourishes. And then like a flower with pollen, it goes off and then next thing you know there's seeds of groups forming in other areas just because they see you doing something cool and then they want to do something cool too. It's absolutely amazing when you hear things like that.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
There is this guy from Israel. He's a great guy called Yuri Lavik. He runs the Israeli software partnership community. He runs it in a slightly different way than we run ours in terms of community thing. But he's doing a great job there. And he has like 690 members. He's probably the largest community that I know. But he doesn't have the... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But he's doing a great job there. And he has like 690 members. But he's probably the largest community that I know. But he doesn't have the monthly events. He's more like ad hoc events.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
But he's doing really well. He's a great, great guy.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
So... And then what we've done, we set up a Google group. So I invited all the community leaders in Europe. And then we have now our group which is still picking up because it's very recent stuff. So that's where we are today. And then hopefully here in the U. S. we'll be meeting people like yourself and all the other guys. And make this connection.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
The American communities.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship
community building and user-group organizing
It's... We're here at SCA. And it's great getting to sit down and meet and talk with so many other music group leaders. But, you know, so we're just going to go ahead and wrap it up now. Thank you, Sandro, for sitting down. Thank you very much. Tom, appreciate it very much. Thank you. Cheers.
Critical Insights
durable
"The group's success is due to its focus on regular meetings and open discussions, which have helped to foster a sense of community and collaboration among members."
durable
"The formation of an associates group to help manage the growing membership is a smart strategy that allows the group to continue to grow and evolve while maintaining a manageable level of organization."
durable
"The group's commitment to promoting craftsmanship and sharing ideas has helped to create a vibrant and engaged community of software developers."