Community Building And User-group Organizing: Mike Hall Interviews London Software Craftsmanship | SCNA 2011

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The Interviewer

Mike Hall

Interviewer, UGtastic

The Guest

London Software Craftsmanship

community building and user-group organizing

The Conversation

Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Hi, I'm Mike, I'm sitting down with, uh, Sandro and Tom from the London Software Craftsmanship Group, and, uh, excuse me, Sandro, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, London Software Craftsmanship?
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Sure, uh, we started about, uh, August 2010, so basically it came up with an idea of, uh, myself and a friend of mine, Dave Green, so we used to meet, just to talk about software and catch up and stuff, and then all of a sudden we set up, maybe it would be great if we could have more people coming along, and then sharing their ideas, uh, preferably if they come from other languages as well, not Java or other, so, then we had this idea of having a group of people that would meet regularly. I took this idea to the London Java community, and spoke to some of the guys that didn't know anything about craftsmanship, but they loved the idea of having a group of people, different professionals coming along and having a chat, and then they said, "Why don't you create a craftsmanship community then?" and they're gonna support you as well, because we would love to attend the meetings. That's how it started. So, that night I went to home, just set up the group on meetup.com, and then we announced our first meeting, and then.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah, and what, so you went from two people, where are you sitting now with, uh, with typical attendance?
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Yeah, it was a bit crazy, because like, when we started, we didn't know exactly how to start, it's okay, we want to create this group, just David and myself, so like, where do we go from there, and then, because we realized that the people that we spoke to didn't know anything about craftsmanship, we decided, but maybe we could give a talk on craftsmanship.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
If we had like 10, 15 people attending, that would be great. Well, it turned out that we had more than 100 registering to our first talk.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah, 100.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Uh, 100. Yeah, and then we were scared, because I've never spoken publicly before, so geez, I can't do that, uh, and then, so after that talk, a lot of people were very inspired in the whole craftsmanship thing, and then we decided to go back to our original idea, that was like having a group of people that meet regularly, uh, and then we come up with a round table, so today, after just over a year, we have 429, uh, members, we promoted, uh, 23 meetings.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Mm-hmm.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
And we are growing at the speed of 15 to 20 members per month, and, yeah, that's about it.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah, so you've got a monthly meetup, right, that's,
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
we have, uh, a few things, we, every Wednesday, every second Wednesday of the month, we have our round table, uh, meetings, that are by far the most popular, it's limited to 30 people, it's a group discussion, people come along, we put topics on the whiteboard.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Like a mini-un-conference?
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Mini-un-conference.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Uh, so we always meet in the same company, there is a company where David used to work for, it started on the company that I used to work for, so they pay all the pizzas, engineers, and stuff. Uh, so we have the space, uh, after 6:30 to 9, uh, so people put the topics, then they explain what they want to discuss, can be anything related to software developer, from, if they want to show a piece of code, or if they want to discuss architecture, or how to do agile and distribute teams around the world.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Anything. So, and then we vote, the most voted topics, we discuss, sometimes we speak in groups, sometimes we discuss one topic per night, sometimes we discuss five.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So that's the round table. We have, uh, every last Wednesday of the month, we have a hands-on coding session, um, that's limited to 40 people.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
There's always oversubscribed as well, so we always have people waiting, and we have some spare, uh, sporadic meetings, like we have code retreats, we have talks, and other stuff, but regular meetings, we have two, and very soon we'll have three.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay, so, two round tables a month.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
No, it's one round table, one hands-on session.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
One round, okay, alright. And then, um, with the extremely large group, you know, we were talking a little bit earlier about how it became too much for just two people to manage, so you wanted to spread that out. That's where Tom comes in with the associates group. Can you explain a little bit about what the associates, and then maybe Tommy can talk about what you do in that. So, first, what is the idea of the associates group, and then?
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
I can explain how it came about. So, this came from the London Java user group, because it has 2,000 members today. So, it was too much for just a few people to organize. So, they tried to invite some people that could contribute, but they are not fully committed. They contribute whenever they can.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, Tom was always one of our, uh, main members, like, very active members. So, yeah.
S2 ▶ Speaking
Yeah, sure. I'm, um, one of the reasons why I'm an associate, because, currently, our software craftsmanship group is quite heavily, sort of, Java.net based. Literally because of the association to the London Java community and other communities. And we don't really have much of a Ruby presence.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
S2 ▶ Speaking
And so, I'm one of those Ruby people that I can talk to other Ruby developers.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
S2 ▶ Speaking
And I know of people in the, sort of, Ruby industry that would be interested.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
So, do you have separate meetings for these, like, is it, because you said you have a limit of 30, but you have 600 or so registered members. Do you have a separate meeting for, like, at a different location or something like that for associate groups?
S2 ▶ Speaking
Yeah, we meet up as the, sort of, associate group. Um, we've only had one meeting so far because we've only done this in one month.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
S2 ▶ Speaking
Um, where we literally just sit down and discuss ideas, the, sort of, the next, sort of, hands-on sessions that we want to do, who wants to do them, how we can help each other with that.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
S2 ▶ Speaking
And all that sort of stuff. Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Yeah. We also discuss, like, the plans for the group as a whole, where we are taking the group.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, the whole direction of the group. Because now, uh, Dave is moving to Italy. So, it's just me, uh, from the original founders.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
And so, the idea that I brought Tom, as he said, I want diversity.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Because Dave and I were Java developers. I want diversity.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, there is a guy from Android community, Tom from Ruby, and then other chief from Java. But, I want more diversity in there.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, we discuss, uh, the thing that Tom talked about, but also, where are we going as a group? What are our next steps in terms of, like, our mentorship program that we want to do?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
The connections to other communities, like, that's what we're doing here. Uh, so, that's the things that the associates would be, uh, discussing. But, as I said, there is a difference between the leadership team and associates. The associates are, they contribute whenever they can.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Loads of people, they have great ideas, but they can't commit to the same level.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Like, Dave and myself. Every month. Sometimes, many hours a month.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Oh, many hours.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Yeah. Weeks. Because, like, we need to sort out all the venues or all the contests.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, the idea with the associates is to bring people that want to help, but don't want to commit straight away.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
And, as soon as they start getting more involved, then we'll bring them to the leadership team and they will have, like, uh, full commitment. But, they need to see if they want to do that first.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, that's why I separate.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. Because, I've seen that problem where sometimes people are saying, "Yes, I want to do this." And then, they get into it a little while and they're like, "Wow, this is a lot of time."
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Mm-hmm.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
And, maybe I really am not that passionate about this after all.
S2 ▶ Speaking
Yeah, no, it's interesting for me because I haven't really worked in a community group like this before or been part in this sort of higher level of it. And, uh, yeah, it's really interesting the sort of training that you get from just talking to guys like Sandra and David on, you know, sort of organization and being able to present as well.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
S2 ▶ Speaking
And learning all those skills while also helping out in the community.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
S2 ▶ Speaking
Yeah. It's very interesting.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
I also want to introduce you later on to Wade Hightower who has a very call here in Chicago for the greatest Ruby community. They have two, uh, two main groups in two different cities, but we can talk about that later. Um, and people have already seen his interview. Uh, so they know all about what he was doing. Um, yeah, no, it's fascinating. And, you said you're also working with some other, or you've been in communications or trying to set up communications with some other user groups that are international, some in Paris and Germany and Israel. Can you tell us a little bit how you've been working with those groups to help them or to at least connect and share?
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Sure. So, when David and I, we sat down, uh, last August, uh, we finished our first year as a community. So we had a meeting and said, okay, we had an amazing first year. Where do you go from there? So we've done a lot for our community in London. Uh, so we made it a reality, but then we realized that we were not doing much for the crossmanship movement as a whole.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So, we said, we need to try to spread that. We need to make crossmanship flourish, if you like, in other places. So part of our mission was to go to other conferences in other countries and start sharing our experience, because Dave and I, we couldn't even organize our own birthdays before that, right? So we were not organizing anything.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So we had no idea what we were doing, uh, and how many people would turn up. But we learned a lot, uh, in one year in terms of finding venues, sponsors, and how to attract members. Uh, so a lot of people want to have a local community, but they don't have one.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
And they are scared to start one because they don't know what to do.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So that was part of our mission. So I ended up going to a crossmanship conference in Germany. Uh, and my mission, I started talking about the communities and what we were doing. And they had no community there. And, but then after speaking to loads of people, uh, five of them put themselves forward. So like, we want to learn more. And then I ran an open space, sharing everything that we've done. And some people sat down and asked for me, but a few of them said, Oh, I'd love to do that.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So they got together. They put in the map where they lived in Germany.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So how they could organize that themselves.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
How we meet in the middle.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Exactly. Yeah. So then they asked loads of questions and stuff. Certain things will work for them. Certain things we probably want. And then they start, uh, to do it. So there are two communities that just started. One community is starting. So one is in Munich. One is in a city that I can't pronounce the name. And there is one in Frankfurt starting on the 3rd of December. They will have their code retreat in the global day of code retreat.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Oh, okay.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Yeah. So that would be their kickoff meeting.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
It's a great way to kick off. Some progressionship group.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Absolutely. Some progressionship group. And so that was Germany. And then because we were tweeting about the whole thing and communities and helping people and the guys there blogged about, mentioned my name and all sorts of stuff. A guy in Paris contacted me.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
So look, I was following the Twitter and stuff. So I would love to do that in Paris.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Would you help me? So of course. And then we spent a few weeks exchanging emails. I was sharing with him everything that we've done, how we've done all sorts. And then he invited me over to do a kickoff talk in his community. And in the first meeting they had like 55 people turning up. And now just a month and a half later they have 125 members.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
I think these kinds of stories are fascinating where you have an idea and you just want to sit down and you're like, hey, I'm going to do something fun. And then it just flourishes and then, you know, like a flower with pollen, it goes off and then next thing you know there's seeds of groups forming in other areas just because they see you doing something cool and then they want to do something cool too. It's absolutely amazing when you hear things like that.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Yeah. There is this guy from Israel. There's a great guy called Yuri Lavi. He runs the Israeli software fellowship community. He runs it in a slightly different way than we run ours in terms of community thing. But he's doing a great job there. And he has like 690 members. He's probably the largest community that I know. But he doesn't have the monthly events. It's more like ad hoc events.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
But he's doing really well. He's a great, great guy.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
And then what we've done, we set up a Google group. So I invited all the community leaders in Europe. And then we have now our group which is still picking up because it's very recent stuff. So that's where we are today. And then hopefully here in the U.S. we'll be meeting people like yourself and all the other guys and make this connection with the American community.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. We're here at SCA and it's great getting to sit down and meet and talk with so many other music group leaders. But, you know, so we're just going to go ahead and wrap it up now. Thank you, Sandro, for sitting down.
London Software Craftsmanship community building and user-group organizing ▶ Speaking
Thank you very much.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Tom, appreciate it very much.
S2 ▶ Speaking
Cheers.

Critical Insights

durable
"The group's success is due to its focus on regular meetings and open discussions, which have helped to foster a sense of community and collaboration among members."
durable
"The formation of an associates group to help manage the growing membership is a smart strategy that allows the group to continue to grow and evolve while maintaining a manageable level of organization."
durable
"The group's commitment to promoting craftsmanship and sharing ideas has helped to create a vibrant and engaged community of software developers."