Developer Community And Conference Conversations: Mike Hall Interviews Zachary Shaw

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🚀 Meet Zachary Shaw, the founder of the Boston Sophomore Craftsmanship Group! 🌟 Hear how he's grown the group through interactive sessions, a mission statement, and encouraging participation. 🎓 #softwarecraftsmanship #programming #developercommunity
The Interviewer

Mike Hall

Interviewer, UGtastic

The Guest

Zachary Shaw

developer community and conference conversations

The Conversation

Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Hi, it's Mike with UGtastic. I'm at SCNA 2013 and I'm sitting down with Zach Shaw, who runs the Boston Software Craftsmanship Group. Zach, thanks for taking the time to sit down with me. We've talked before, but it's been a while since we've been able to catch up. How are you doing and how's the software craftsmanship in Boston?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
It's going, I'm doing good. And the group's doing great. We just had our three year anniversary.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Wow. Three years.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah. So three years once a month and it's, you know, kind of going steady and great. Let's see, new things that have happened. I spent some time thinking about kind of what I always had, a particular specific philosophy of the sort of events that were in and out. And I was thinking, you know, in the last year or so about bringing more people in to facilitate. Cause I've been doing all the facilitation for the last three years primarily. And sometimes I have other things to do or I don't have an idea. And also to give other people experience. Cause it's important to me to, you know, I get so much value. I realized, I was like, boy, I'm getting good at this. You know, like I'm building up my skill at facilitating these things. That's something I could spread around. But three years is a lot of time to do something over and over and over again, especially with life events that come up and things like that.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
So I was thinking about bringing other people in. And so I started, you know, at the end of our meetings, asking folks like, hey, who wants to do a session? And people would be like, yeah, I want to do something. And I'd be like, what do you want to do? And they'd say some topic. And I'd be like, that doesn't fit, you know, or someone would say something. I'd be like, that does fit. And all of a sudden I was like, wow, there's some criteria I have that nobody else knows about that I think is important. And so I was like, I have to nail that a little better, you know. So I started doing some work kind of thinking about that. And I was like, I need a mission, I need a mission statement. And so I realized that the things that people were saying that fit in and fit out and didn't fit in were about practice. And so the mission and improvement, you know, I think improvement is kind of a given, you know, software craftsmanship, we're trying to get better, raise the bar, right? That's the theme of this conference, I feel like this year. So the mission statement I came up with to frame for people who wanted to propose things was improvement through practice. So that's the mission statement for Boston Software Craftsmanship.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yep. And it sounds like that was a really important growth for you, to realize that you had these ideas in your head, but you weren't maybe communicating them as well as it felt like.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
It did. It definitely felt like that. And so it was like a really important turning point for me. And I think, you know, I've gotten a little bit of positive feedback. I've heard people kind of mention the mission statement, and I think it's like a really good framing, you know, like why, you know?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right. Right. So that's like a big question I've been asking. Is that affected new members, maybe them having a better understanding of what to expect by coming to a group and saying, oh yeah, that is a value proposition I would want to spend my afternoon evening doing?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
I don't know for a fact. It has definitely helped frame the sessions that we're doing. It must give context. It is context for the sessions. So, you know, we had someone new present, and it was so much easier for me to explain what the expectations were because I kind of did the work, and it was easier for them to accept it because they had seen a couple sessions and they kind of knew what the deal was.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah, exactly. So can you describe again how your meetings are? If I recall correctly, you did lots of interactive sessions, right?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah, it's a hundred percent interactive. There's no talking heads. That doesn't excite me and I don't think that excites the members who have shown up for the last three years because they like the interactive stuff. But yeah, it's all interaction. So we'll have a discussion, or we'll do some hands-on coding, or we'll do some other kind of hands-on exercise. You know, it could be just like we did a modeling exercise. There was no code involved. It was just like, here's a problem, come up with different models that would solve it. Lots of circles and arrows.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Lots of circles and arrows.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah. But sometimes it's good just to step away from the keyboard and just think about the shape of the problem.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. I think there's a lot more to being a good craftsman than the keyboard.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Right.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
And as far as the membership, has it expanded, contracted? Have you gone through any cycles that you recall over the last two, three years?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
It's been growing in the last, I'd say, three months. I've noticed a significant growth. It's always been a small growth.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Has that been since the mission statement, or?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
I think the mission statement is about a year old at this point, or maybe it's nine months old, but I think a couple folks have kind of switched jobs and they've done a good job of reaching out to people at their new companies and bringing them in.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Okay.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
That, I think, is like promotion.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
I mean, it's like marketing. That's what's kind of raised the membership.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
But organic.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
It isn't that you're paying for it. It's that somebody tells somebody.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah. Somebody brings somebody.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
So there's like a handful of people who have kind of grown more interested in, you know, being more involved, and they've brought more people.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
All right. Are you looking at diversifying into any... is Boston Software Craftsmanship involved with any of the local events? Or are you mostly focused on your monthly meetings?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
We're not really involved in too many of the other user groups. We have two events. There's this Boston Software Craftsmanship group, and then out of that there is a Code and Cocktails event, which Mark Simpson, who's no longer in Boston, created. And so that's kind of interesting. It's a different slice of people.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
But it's out of the same group of people.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Just, you know, a little aside about the Code and Cocktails. It's always interesting to see a community grow past its founder. To see, you know, the founder step away or move or whatever happens, but the community, once it's established and fostered and properly nurtured to a certain point, can become a self-sustaining, self-propagating entity.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
And it can live beyond.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
So it's kind of like, if you work hard enough, it's just like raising a kid or a company, if you work hard enough, eventually it just kind of can go.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah. I think so.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
And is that where you feel like, not that you're looking to step away, but that you're trying to get Boston Software Craftsmanship to a point where it can kind of maybe operate without you having to push the buttons every month.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah. I'm definitely thinking about that. Yeah.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Is it, has it been hard? I mean, have there been days where you question about whether or not you want to keep it going, just because?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
No, no, I don't, but that's not like a concern. I like it so much. It's like, you know, it's like a really smart, interested group of people and it's a really fun atmosphere. So I don't want to stop. I'm not like sick of it or anything like that. I think it's like, I want to help people get better. And one of the ways to help people get better is to help them become better facilitators and leaders. And so I want to give some of that opportunity that I've kind of hoarded with myself to other people, you know.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Well, I mean, it might be fun to be able to go to a session and just learn.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
It is. Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Cause I haven't got that opportunity, but you don't have to go in and be like, oh, is the food ready? You know, did everybody show up? Is there somebody locked out?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. Not that that happened to Gary Bernhardt. I mean, at a conference, you know, somebody got locked out before the talk. So it seems like the group is growing and you're growing with it. And that's really exciting to hear, that somebody who's started a community is still three years on, still excited, enthusiastic about what they're doing and trying to figure out new ways to even approach it.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah, it feels great. You know, I think in the last four months I've only facilitated one session. So it's like really cool.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. You need to go and just kind of enjoy what you started.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Reap what you sow.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Reap what I sow. Yeah. I've started, I try and keep my expectations of the facilitators low.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Right.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Which is, I think, fun for everybody. It was interesting. So I did this session on trampolining. I didn't know anything about trampolining. I was like, no one here knows anything about trampolining.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
I'm going to act like I know what you're talking about. All right, there's different contexts, but I'm not sure the context you're speaking of.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
So I was thinking about trampolining as a technique. I first heard about it in Clojure. I knew there was this function, trampoline, and I didn't understand it, and I didn't understand why it was important. Nobody in the group did. So I was like, all right, here's the programming concept. Yeah. Let's figure it out.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Let's figure it out.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
So I set up the session, and all of a sudden it exploded into, you know, tail recursion optimization. And I was preparing all this stuff, and I was like, I don't really know a lot about this stuff, and I don't know how well prepared I am, but I came in and I was like, this is all going to be confusing.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
This is going to be bigger than I expected.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
But it was cool. Cause I was like, we're going to figure it out together. I have all this material. I think, you know, we can do these things. And it was fun. Cause my preparation was so half baked, but it somehow engaged everybody immensely. That was the feedback I asked them. I was like, how did this thing go? I was like really unprepared, and they're like, it was awesome that you were unprepared because we all had to work hard and be engaged. I was like, all right, that's a weird strategy.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
So was that part of what made you realize that maybe you're holding it a little bit too close, and that letting people be a little bit more active and participant, not just that they do the activity, but actually be a part of the opportunity?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
The unknown... wait, what's your question?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Well, that they got to be part of the creation of the content for the presentation. That instead of coming in with a baked, here's what we're going to do, here's the concept, and you already know it back to front, you come in and it's like, here's kind of an open ended thing, let's do this together. And then now they feel like they can come in and own part of the problem.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
I think it helped me frame the expectations for other people who are going to present. That's kind of what I've been evolving. Like, what are the expectations? If you came in and you're going to facilitate the thing at Boston Software Craftsmanship, what are the expectations on you? So my thoughts on that have been growing more sophisticated. And so I think it was kind of like an aha for me then, that was like, okay, you know, you don't need to be fully prepared. And that's kind of awesome because it lowers the expectations, you know, because I think some people were like, I don't want to present because I'm intimidated by the amount of work and the expectations. Like, you have to really run a great session, you know. And it's like, no, you don't have to be so prepared because we'll all help you.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. So it's not that you have to have all the answers, but you have to have a plan.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Yeah. You have to have a plan, and don't worry about how hard it is to prepare. Just spend, you know, six to ten hours, and if you can do that, then cool, we'll all support you in helping you run the session basically.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Yeah. Because at some point you have to have that first.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Well, it's not about the first. No, it's just that the expectation of the group is that it doesn't need to be fleshed out because we're going to have a great time. And we're going to explore some concept, no matter what, as long as you're able to give us a framing, like a general framing. It doesn't have to be fleshed out. You're not the guy who has all the answers. You're just the person who's helping us move the conversation along.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to sit down with me. I appreciate it.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
You're welcome.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
And it's Boston Software Craftsmanship. It's on Meetup, right?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Uh, no, no, not Meetup.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Oh, you're not on Meetup.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Google Groups.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
Google Groups.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Boston Software Craftsmanship Group. And you'll find it.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
All right. Great. Thank you very much.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations ▶ Speaking
Cool. Thanks, Mike.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic ▶ Speaking
All right.