Boston Sc: Mike Hall Interviews Zach Shaw | SCNA 2011
Boston Sc: Mike Hall Interviews Zach Shaw | SCNA 2011
Meet Zach Shaw, the founder of the Boston Software Craftsmanship group. Learn about their monthly meetings, practice-based activities, and challenges in attracting new members. #BostonSC #SoftwareCraftsmanship #PairingExercises #UserGroup #Publicity
The Interviewer
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
The Guest
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
The Conversation
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Hi, I'm Mike. I'm sitting here with Zach, who runs the Boston Software Craftsmanship group. Welcome, Zach. Can you tell us a little bit about the Boston Software Craftsmanship group? Sure.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
We have been around for about a year and a half.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
You were here before the last SMA, right? Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So the group, I think we started April a year and a half ago, whatever that is. And we do monthly meetings, usually like the first Monday of the month. And the meetings, we try and make them practice-based or discussion-based, so like interactive.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay, so like doing katas and pairing exercises and things like that?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
Yeah, pairing exercises or discussions, like we'll read a paper and discuss the paper.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
And what kind of, like CODS laws?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
I'm drawing up now the CODS paper.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay. Is there a paper on relational design or something like that?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
I'm trying to think. We read, last month we read the S-Unit paper that Kent Beck wrote. Okay, Kent Beck, yeah. And then other things we've read, I'm drawing a blank right now.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
But you kind of have homework a little bit between these?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
Yeah, sometimes we try and have a little bit of homework so that people kind of come ready to discuss something. And that's definitely a pattern. I just had to wonder if that would ever be, you know, it might be nice for me if I came to a meeting and I know I'm going to be at the next meeting that I put in that time to read the paper so that way I can be prepared for the meeting. But if I come in and I just am coming into my first ever meeting and I've never read this paper, have you ever experienced anybody that's, like what has been the reaction to that?
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Have you had new people come in and participate? Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So I think sometimes we attract people depending on the paper we are reading. Oh, okay. So I know like the last meeting we had a guy who was lurking on the mailing list for a long time and he saw we were reading that S-Unit paper and he was really interested in it so he wanted to talk about it with other people. Sometimes, you know, not everyone's prepared. I'm not always prepared. I'm pretty lazy about reading. But it's okay.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
No one's grading you?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
No one's grading us. You know, it's just that, you know, as long as there's enough people who can kind of help a discussion go along.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay. Okay.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And, go ahead. So depending on kind of what homework we had, it'll like usually inform what activity we do.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So like one time I had everyone just kind of peek at, I think, Luau.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Luau?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
Luau. Luau. The scripting language. The scripting language.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And then we all just kind of like played with the language for, you know, tonight.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So it wasn't like a formal like, hey, we're pairing on something that's more, let's see what we can do.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So. Let's make this thing work.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. Exactly.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
I don't know.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
We've had a couple of things like that where we're just kind of like, you know, messing around with something that no one knows. Or, you know, we do like, there's a pair of programming game that I kind of invented and we have fun with that.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
You invented a game? What is that? What are the rules?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
The rules are, we take some kata, some simple exercises.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So we take some kata, some simple exercises. Yes. And then we do this. We do this. And then we do this. We do this. And then we do this. And then we do this. And then we do this. we take some kata, some simple exercise or something more complicated and everyone pairs up and you code for 15 minutes and then one person stays at the computer and another person leaves so you get a new pair and then so you only pair on the code base twice so you kind of like inherit a new code base. Okay, so you're like the navigator and there's the pilot who's got the keyboard and you're working with them and then you get promoted to the driver's seat and then the driver goes off and then a new second, okay. It's kind of silly but it's fun like sometimes you're pairing on like a language not that you know but it's okay because you're only on it for 15 minutes. Right, but also you're kind of keeping people moving through it and you're not just waiting for people to raise their hands and presuming you're like, "Nope, you're next. " Well, everyone's paired and then we just have a timer so every 15 minutes we shuffle everybody. So it's not just one station where everybody's watching. Oh, no. Everyone… Oh, it's just everybody… Yeah, so if you're like… We have four people. We have four stations. Musical chairs. It's musical chairs.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Exactly. Okay.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
Musical chairs with a cord. That would be a good name for it.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
Oh, there we go. All right. New name. Music's done. Everybody get up. Change seats. So, yeah, it's silly. It's fun but… Yeah. And as we had a previous conversation, Boston has like one or two universities.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Have you gotten any students coming in to meetings? No?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
No.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
No?
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
It's… Do you think it's just maybe they are not aware of them or… I think… Because it has to be a unique environment. You know, I run… Where it's mostly some very corporate surroundings. I don't know. I don't do the best job of publicizing. Oh, I'll edit that one out. No, it's great. It's great. It's hard. It's hard to publicize. It's hard to publicize and running a user group, it's hard. It's a lot of work. And so, that's one of the challenges, I think, of running a user group is doing the publicity.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And it depends how big you want it. So, like, right now, you're doing the advertising. Right now, you're doing the advertising.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
You're doing the advertising. Right now, you're doing the advertising. So, like, right now, you're doing the advertising. Right now, you're doing the advertising.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And so, that's one of the challenges, I think, of running a user group is doing the publicity.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And it depends how big you want it. So, like, right now, we have, you know, you know, I don't know, six to eight people who come each meeting.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And it's a regular crew, but… I think… I think you made a good point, though, about the… How big you want it to get. The user group isn't always about just trying to build the largest base of attendance. It's… Yeah. Can I build a group that I can… Yeah. …use in a way that… Yeah. …is… Yeah. …meet with on a regular basis that I enjoy interacting and learning with. It doesn't always have to be, I have 50 people, or I have 80 people, or I have 10 people.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
It's, are we having fun? Can we do this for a long period of time? And I'm like, are we learning things? Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
Well… I think that's an interesting, you know, perspective on that.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And for me, that's what the software customer should be.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
And I think that's one of the… Yeah. I think that's what the Software Craftsmanship group is about, is you kind of… My education and, you know, my other peers' education, and so, you know, I want to make sure that it's… I don't learn best passively, and I don't think most of us do. So it's important to me that whatever activities we do are kind of interactive.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Zach Shaw
Boston SC
So, you know, a discussion or an exercise or something.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Well, thank you very much for staying with me. All right. Great.