Well, the current, as you said, it's an open source thing, so I'm sure there's some evolution. What is the current format of a... So the core format is a Friday night, Saturday event, where on Friday, all of the installation occurs. So you have volunteers who come and help people get their machines set up. Because that is often the most difficult part for beginners, and it really has nothing to do with the, you know, writing code or... It can be a wall. The particular technique. Or get Ruby on my computer. Yeah, I mean, particularly Rails is so many collections of open source packages, and it's particularly hard on, you know, and it's different for each machine you're on. Once you've got Ruby and Rails installed, it's easy. And then it's different for the different technologies, and in fact, there's now a front-end workshop that doesn't have an evening install fest, because everybody has a browser and a text editor, and that's kind of easy. Yeah, that one's... But for the Rails workshop, that is really an important step. And then... Saturday is everybody follows the same curricula, and you have at least two groups. One is for people who've never written code before, and the other is for, you know, whatever degree of... Maybe they already hit Java, but they never did Rails.

So sometimes we'll find that people who are sysadmins are faster learning Rails than experienced programmers who maybe have done desktop applications, but aren't very familiar with the command. So your level of experience as a coder doesn't necessarily correlate to how fast you'll learn the very first steps of Rails. So you might have predisposed towards, oh, this is how we do it on the desktop, whereas somebody who has maybe had some scripting experience doesn't have maybe as rigorous a mindset on, oh, yeah, it has to be this way. Yeah, because you'll have different learning curves for people who've done web apps, so they understand HTTP, versus people who've done C++, therefore they understand... Object-oriented programming, versus people who've done a lot of command line stuff, and so they're very facile with the scripting aspects of it. So we try to group people into like-minded experience, but mostly it's depending on the size of the workshop. The grouping is flexible depending on the venue and the size and the number of volunteers and teachers you have, and sometimes it's just everybody's in a room and we figure it out.

Yeah, I was just going to say, in addition to that, so, like, typically I try... I try to group people based on very broad generalizations. So I've programmed before, I've never programmed before, or I've done some Rails, but I need some more help with, you know, more advanced concepts. And then split the people apart and try to get TAs that match sort of those, like, comfort levels of teaching. And you said you've gone all over the world and done these all over. I'm just curious, like, all... I mean, literally, like, where...

Well, so I've done them... So I've done one... I've done quite a few in the United States, and I've done one in Singapore, and I've helped out with one in Chile, and I can't remember every world. But it's really easy to... Once you've seen one run and you have a desire to do them, it's really not very difficult if you, you know, ping the mailing list. Everybody will tell you what the latest, you know... We just ran one last weekend, and this is what we ran into. We've already done pool requests. Update the documentation, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So everybody's super helpful. And there's some really nice side effects that come from that. A lot of people who don't really know anything about the workshops go to our instructions for how to install Rails because, you know, a new version of this or that comes out, and the install instructions change. But because now there are workshops happening several times a month in lots of different places, those are updated by the volunteers, and they're different volunteers every time, so it isn't as much of a burden. So it's also kind of becoming... I mean, a documentation unto itself, not just a script for how to do these classes, but also, hey, I just need to set up Rails.

Yeah, there's a lot of different things that come out of it, and, you know, educational resources and set-up resources and different things. So that's a pretty neat side effect of your community. And I do want to ask about the social aspect. The way I understand is that the legend is that Sarah Allen and Sarah May were at a conference. And they didn't see a lot of other women.

And you wanted to create something that would help bring... Yeah, so the stats are we were at a conference where there were 200 people and six women. So that's 3%, which is reflective of...

Well, in any case, it's around the number of women in open source, which is much, much smaller than the number of women in open source. And I saw a number of women in the corporate world doing programming. And I came more from companies which were less involved with open source, where I felt that there were not very many women, but there were more women than I saw in the Ruby community. And I'd been meaning to learn Ruby for three years before I had started learning Ruby in 2008. And so I thought, and I still believe it's true, that there are more... Women programmers in the Bay Area than there are Ruby programmers.

Therefore, if there's 20% of programmers are women, overall, statistically...

No, it's actually more... We have a bigger opportunity than that. Oh, okay. Because Ruby's a small language. So therefore, if we just convert some of the existing programmers to know Ruby, then it would be easy to actually get 50%. And in any of the new languages, I think we have a real big opportunity to do that. Because in any... In any specific community, we can change the ratio much easier, because it's smaller than just, you know, the boil-in-the-ocean problem. And I also heard that in the startups, it's also a boys' club culture as well. And with Ginny, I did an interview with Ginny a few months ago, and she described it as when a startup happens, it's usually some friends that get together and they start the startup. And then they hire people like them from their own network. Is that something...

Well, statistically, tech founders are 2% to 3% women. And I think that a lot of that... There is a culture in the United States that is where men have the networks, and men see those kinds of opportunities as available to them for whatever reason. But I do think that the social dynamics of creating situations where women and men and people of all colors and creeds can get together and learn together, then we forge those networks. Where, by example, people see that what you happen to look like, the words you use, your background, doesn't dictate that you are more or less capable. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a really important thing. 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