Martin Atkins on Music Industry and Branding | ChicagoWebConf 2012

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Martin Atkins, author of 'Welcome to the Music Industry, You're Fucked,' shares his experiences in the music industry and how he has applied those lessons to his work in technology and education. He emphasizes the importance of seeking out new experiences and challenges beyond one's field to broaden one's knowledge and skills. #musicindustry #technology #education #learning #growth
The Interviewer

Mike Hall

Interviewer, UGtastic

The Guest

Martin Atkins

conference speaking and presentation skills

The Conversation

Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Hi, I'm Mike. I'm with UGtastic here at Chicago Web Conference. I'm sitting here with Martin Atkins, who's written the book, Welcome to the Music Industry, You're Fucked. And he's also spoken at quite a few regional tech conferences, UX, Mad, Madison, Ruby, and today here at Chicago Web Conf. And also he's been in a few industrial bands. You've played drums with Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, correct? Can I joke?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
A few small bands from my youth. You come to these technical conferences and you talk about the music industry.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
What is it that you want to teach technical people about the music industry?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
I think that that's kind of a good question. One of the things I'm trying to do for me is expand myself. So, I mean, I can do music business stuff. I can sit down with a band in half an hour, show them how to make an extra $60,000 in a year. Blindfold. You know, music business has been my life. Then education became my world, maybe six or seven years ago. And I love that, reaching out to younger and younger kids. Oh yeah, you teach at the Medicine Media Institute. Medicine Media Institute, yeah. But I also, I guess, lecture all over the world in music business and entrepreneurial activities. I think that I think the more interesting question is, more interesting to me anyway, is how did initially UX Madison reached out to me, right? Which you don't, for a programming conference, or Madison Ruby, which is Ruby on Rails, stuff that I didn't know these terms, right? Yeah, six months ago. I thought it was super cool that they reached out to myself, Clyde Stubblefield, who's the funky drummer, the world's most sample drummer, to come and speak to them at a conference about programming or whatever. And I haven't seen that kind of openness, the desire to be exposed to new things from the music business. You know, the music business, you know, I just did a heavy metal convention in Calgary, and it was very cool of them to have me, basically a punk rocker, come up and talk to them. But it would be the equivalent of what UX Madison did, would be for the Calgary Heavy Metal Music Festival, to have a baseball player, or somebody from a cookery show, come in and go, this is what we do with spinach.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
So, after learning some interesting things from Dale Carnegie, about social media, about my dad, social media stuff before there was social media, learning from the Vikings, learning from a contemporary music blues class in California, that Woody Guthrie was actually kind of the first punk. You know, exposing myself to new and different random things. It's how I've learned. So, that's why I want to come and do this.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
So, it's like, what am I here to teach these people?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Nothing. I'm here to learn, you know. I think that some of the things I say about a band also apply to a brand, you know, in the same way that a band has to worry about their fans. I mean, you know, I think that those worlds have crossed over now. There are more fans of the iPhone than there are fans of most bands.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
You know, technology is the new, coolest band. Yeah, you identified, I have an iPhone. It's a new Starbucks.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right. And I just spoke at the Apple store last week, right?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And I was nervous. I was more nervous about that than South by Southwest in front of a thousand people, you know, because it was the Apple store.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
So, it was the brand presentation that you're like, I'm an Apple?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Yeah, but it's an Apple store.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And I can tell people, I'm keynoting here, I'm doing this, I'm in South America, I'm doing that. And they're like, yeah, yeah, okay. But I'm going to be at the Apple store. Ooh.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Really? Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
It's like, it's like, oh, come on.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
But is it, is it because that just made me surprised to be like, the Apple store?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
You know, like... No, Apple is the new cool, this week. Now it's, now it's reached the zenith of its coolness, it's downhill all the way now.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
You know, even Richard Branson says, you know, choose to be the underdog, and Apple has been, and now it isn't.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. So, the, the scene is set for some underdog, except Apple keeps buying all the underdogs, don't they? Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And so, with your, with your goal of you learning by coming out and exposing, so, that's something I've agreed with. I, I didn't come into software development, um, as a child. I didn't grow up in it. I, I started as 25. I had a variety of experiences, and I think that's flavored my approach to, to what I do in, in, in micro. Is that something, so, seeking out those, those experiences and, and challenges that are beyond work, beyond your field, is that something you encourage?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Well, I, I wouldn't be here if I didn't speak in public, and just, you know, I'm like anybody else. The first time, I, I spent my life behind a drum kit, on stage, in front of anything, 15,000 people, live television. And, um, but to stand, without a drum kit, just to talk to people, my legs were shaking, and you just keep practicing and doing that. I started to educate, by accident. I went to Columbia College Chicago, which is not far from here, to get interns to help me promote a tour. And, and, I did a presentation for the faculty, and they said, when can you start, and I said, I can start, I can take interns with me now.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
They're like, no, when could you start teaching this? Oh, really? And, and, and I was like, huh?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And, I had this, slow motion moment in my head of like, this is ridiculous, but what would I tell my children?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Grab the nettle, um, expose yourself to new opportunities, so I said, when does the class start? Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
They're like, this Saturday.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay, is it an hour long class?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
It's a seven hour long class. Oh my goodness. And I just said, screw it. And I started doing it. And as soon as I walked into the first class, and they gave me the textbook, I looked at the textbook, it was written in 1962. And so, I started to write my first book, which is called Tour Smart. And because of Tour Smart, I've been to Norway five times. Like, not that that's a big deal, but South America. I've traveled more as an author than I ever did as a musician, and I traveled a lot as a musician. And it was just because of exposing myself to an unexpected opportunity.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And, and if I'd analyzed the opportunity, I would have said, here's an opportunity to teach. Mm-hmm. I didn't even know that it was an opportunity to end up creating materials and writing a book, and ending up, well, I'm just finishing off my third book. Yeah, yeah, sometimes the path isn't clear, but sometimes when you go down there, it takes just surprising places.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And that's the guy from Holiday Inn. He said, you walk through the doors that are open. Mm-hmm. It's like, wow. Yeah, it's very simple, but it's, it's profound as well. That's, if you don't, if you don't, what is it, the fortune favors the bold kind of thing. Um, with, with engaging, uh, students, though, and coming to a conference, is it, uh, one of the things is because I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, my audience is mostly people who are, technical people who are looking at, uh, technical topics and, and wanting to learn. Um, looking at teaching a class of, of aspiring, um, well, I mean, when you, when you're teaching class, are they aspiring music, musician managers, or are they? Um, they, they, they could be event managers. Um, I've had students go into politics. Um, one of my label managers worked on the Obama campaign, did the mayoral race in Pittsburgh, in Houston, and is now, uh, AFL-CIO. Um, some people want to manage venues. They want to manage bands. Um, they want to work on a radio show, um, or just be entrepreneurial, uh, using video. I've got some students who've created a recycled fashion, uh, game show and clothesline combined. Um, they, they're just, so the, the, the, it's a media school with a basis in recording, motion capture, videography, but the EMB program is, it's entrepreneurial. It can be anything. But, uh, what the question I was getting, trying to stumble towards was, uh, talking to those types of, of people, and they have, uh, a mindset that is, I, I would imagine, unique to their career path versus coming to a technical where you have a lot of developers and people are a little bit more, they're used to that drum kit, so to speak, being in front of them. Being in front of the laptop, the workstation, the thing that they interact with, coming and teaching, uh, uh, or, or sharing with, with, uh, a technical audience.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Is it, is a difference? Is a, is a response difference? Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Some of the laughs are easier. We're a little bit, just kind of happy to be here. Yeah, um, and, you know, um, there's a few things, it, it stretches me, like my CSS gag, you know, so I, I try, I'm always trying to kind of find a way in, so, you know, I know that these guys use CSS, Java, Ruby on Rails, so I made my CSS Miami, I love that TV show. Joke. Joke. So if, if I can make this audience laugh with a programming joke.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Then that's, that's my chops.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
I'm working on my chops. And I'm opening the door. When I was in Norway, uh, I, I bought a t-shirt from the, from the hotel lobby, which had Viking rules on it.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And, and I thought, well this is great.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
You know. And then I went on a thing, I went on a tangent, because the kids I was talking to didn't know Viking rules, and they were Norwegian. So that was weird to me. And then, when I went to try and find a download of the Viking rules, there was a bunch of programmers, who were like, this stuff is great for programming. And I'm like, whoa. You know, so, these, these collisions of different worlds, fascinate me. Um, there's a boxer, called Joe Calzaghi. I think he's Walsh.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
He's very difficult to fight, because he was trained by his father, who wasn't a fighter. He was an improvisational jazz pianist.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
So, Joe Calzaghi is a warrior, and an inspirational, uh, improvisational jazz pianist. So, nobody knows what he's going to do next, least of all him. His thought process is so different.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
He's not on a track of, I go in low and then high.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
He's like... He's got... He's got... Yeah, he's got... He's improvising.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
So, you start to hear things like that. And so, there are programmers here with their laptop and their thing, and it's, to me, the poetry, the art, and the grooviness is somewhere in between that world and another world.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
You know? Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Um, I think, I think great accounting, business accounting, is more akin these days to poetry, than numbers.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
You know?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
It's the stuff, like I said, it's the stuff that shouldn't work, that's fascinating to me, not the stuff that obviously does. And, and it's, it's the risk of putting together a 12 person band with all this extra stuff like guar, like, like anything huge and monstrous that is inspirational. And, and it's the stuff that costs the extra time and energy and money, that weirdly, from an accounting perspective, makes it not possible. But, from a business perspective, that's the one thing that sustains that business and enables it to grow.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
The thing that is the, the wild card, the, the thing that is from the outside.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
It's very interesting. Well, uh, just one last thing before we wrap up is, one of the themes that's kind of come out today in, in my interviews is one about self-promotion. Not just self-promotion of, I'm great, I'm a, I'm a, you know, you should hire me. But the, my group, my tool, it's good. I, it's useful. I, I'd like more people to use it, look at it, contribute to it. Is, is that something that, when you're dealing with a band and you're trying to get people to listen to you? I, that's the only thing I can imagine is like, how you talk to people and, and sharing music with a new... You don't. You don't. You make organic, homegrown blackberry jam. You know, and people, you know, people like your jam. And once you have a fan club of 5,000 people in your jam balaya fan club, um, you say, "Oh, hey, you know, I wrote a song. " Oh my goodness!
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Brian, the jam guy, wrote a song. Everybody listen. You love his jam.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
What do you think of his music?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
If you start with, "I wrote a song. " Yeah. Nobody cares. There's a band called I Fight Dragons from Chicago.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Before they started, they, they said, "Well, who are we?
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
" And they were a bunch of nerds who liked Star Wars.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
So they started going to Star Wars conventions and screenings and starting a user group, you know, and then they started to make a song and they gave it to everybody for free and then they made another one and they all started watching movies together and started a group where they'd all sign up to Netflix or put in a VHS tape at the same time and then have a Twitter hashtag. Oh, they'd all be tweeting.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Live tweeting the movie as they watched it. And now there used to be like ten people and now they're on the road. They played the Metro. I think they sold it out. This is a three year plan.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And they still do this stuff with hundreds of people. So it was about having fun. And kind of though what you said about the Blueberry Gym makes me think is do something awesome, then go the other way.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And because you've got trust and people like you and they know you and they think, oh, this is good stuff. And then you go the other way and they're more likely to follow you and give you a shot.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And I love that Dale Carnegie quote. You make more friends in two months being interested in other people than you are making two years trying to get other people interested in you. And so you have Saul Colt, who's an amazing guy, you should follow him on Twitter. He did the promotions for FreshBooks.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
They went to South by Southwest and instead of saying, great, great, you should use this. Really, you should use it. Sit down and let me type you through the screens. They just make pancakes for people. It's like, people like pancakes. Pancakes. Like, okay. Once you eat, once somebody eats your pancakes, it's like, then they owe you a couple of minutes.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
Like, hey, you know, come see FreshBooks. It's really great. And you back off on your pitch.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And I said, like I said in there, it's not a gift. If what you have is good and useful, it's a time released exploding guilt bomb. You know, you give people something, you give them a reason. I tell bands, if you want to get people to listen to your music, you're asking for like half an hour of their time. Do their laundry.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And play the music while you're doing the laundry. In the laundry. The next thing you know, you'll have somebody like, well, I've got a mobile pancake food truck.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
So now it's an event. You know, you turn something horrible into something really great. Because now people are like, I don't particularly like this band, but I like this band more than I hate doing laundry.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
And now you've got to think. But most bands might go, oh no, our music is so important.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
If your music is so important, then do somebody's laundry to get their attention and build. Or whatever combination, do somebody's lawn, you know, babysit, fish sit, cat sit, do whatever it is. You find that way in. The way in isn't, my stuff is really good.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Martin Atkins conference speaking and presentation skills
You know. My stuff is, I'm going to give you something.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to sit down with me. Thanks. Nice to talk to you.