Conference Speaking And Presentation Skills: Mike Hall Interviews Leon Gersing | SCNA 2012
Leon Gersing shares his experience of overcoming the shame and self-deprecation that often accompany asking for help in the technical community. He advocates for embracing the joy of learning and sharing knowledge, regardless of one's level of expertise, and encourages speakers to present with authenticity and openness. #softwarecraftsmanship #teaching #learning #presenting #authenticity
The Interviewer
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
The Guest
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
The Conversation
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Hi, I'm Mike here again with UGtastic at SCNA. Right now I'm sitting down with Leon Gersig. Leon gave a pretty interesting talk at Madison Ruby a few weeks ago, and it's spread around quite a bit in that it was such a positive message to the people in the technical community. So I just wanted to kind of mention where did that come from?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
So I've been speaking for a long time and working with folks just wherever. I have this rule, like if I can drive in a single day to your location, I'll come hang out and we'll have some fun and I'll get to meet a bunch of people. And over time, what I noticed was that there was a lot of ceremony that went into actually engaging with other developers. It usually started with a very long explanation of where they were and how they got there, and then it's followed on by a lot of apologies. Yeah, I'm sorry, this is crap. Yeah, exactly. A lot of self-mockery. A lot of self-deprecation. The irony is that it all stems from somebody saying, like, I really want to get better, but I don't know how, and my current social circle isn't providing it. I need some help. And even the courageous act of asking for help did not mitigate all of the shame kind of preservation that people are trying to get away from. So the talk is basically just that. It's an artifact. Not understanding why the best parts of people are the things that we suppress. And just we chase kind of this weird semblance of perfect or mastery that doesn't really exist. So that's really what I come to say, which is that hold yourself to a standard. That's great. But you define that standard. Be excited for the little things. Be excited about the big things. But just be excited.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
You're awesome. You're already here. You're awesome. Yay.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Now what? Now what do we do?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
Now we're here. We're alive. Let's have some joy.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right. Yeah, because it's a third of your life, right? So why would you hate a third of your life?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
It seems really odd to me. Well, it makes me wonder if it's hero worship. And sometimes I think one time in a user group, I was going to do a talk about SOLID principles.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
And who walks in but Uncle Bob?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
And I immediately froze. And it felt like I can't do anything that's going to be good enough. I'm only going to mess this up. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
You know, it becomes, "Oh, now I'm going to stutter and now I'm going to... " But it was okay if I had gotten up there and he said, "Well, maybe your understanding wasn't... " And that's actually what happened. And it actually turned out to be great because he said, "Well, maybe the way you described it isn't the best. " Right. "Maybe if you described it like this, it might be better. " And then that was a lot of fun. And the minute you remove the barrier, remove that ceremony that we were just talking about. Like for instance, I'm going to give this talk and therefore when the time comes I'm going to open my mouth and start talking about it.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
You've essentially, because of the structure of what you're doing, had to.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
So then anyone in the room can say, "I hear what you're saying. You're close. " Yeah. Then that shouldn't embarrass you in the slightest.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
It should be almost affirming. Like, "Wow, I really am on to understanding this and now somebody who has more wisdom, more time, more experience, was able to enlighten me further. " So then next time I do this talk or the next time I have this conversation, it's going to be that much better.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
I think a lot of times when somebody goes to a user group or a conference, it's always under the guise of the person who's talking is an expert.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
And therefore they should be experts and experts should be experts. But sometimes in our... We forget that there's an amateur aspect to what we're doing, that you're a professional programmer and you should be competent in your skill. But when you come to a conference, you're not a professional speaker. Maybe if you're somebody who gets paid big bucks to come and talk about a topic. Okay, there's a higher standard, but you go to a user group that it's a, "I've learned this, I want to share it back out, and I want to just... " At least reciprocate back what I've learned and what I've come... But I'm an amateur speaker. I think that puts too much on the person speaking.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
And I think it actually does the group a disservice as a whole. The person who's getting up to speak simply has something to share.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
I think putting them on an artificial... So it's not even amateur or professional. Really, yeah. So I'm going to share. I have a friend, Joe Wordley, who he does this thing when he likes a topic.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
But isn't an expert, right?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
He will start his talk with, "Hi, I'm Joe, and I don't really know everything about this. " Yeah. "I'm just sharing what I've learned, and I think it's cool, and I would love to discuss it further. I'm not going to get everything right. " Right. And he just suddenly puts it out there and then goes into his thing. And what's amazing is he's so good anyway that he's just killing it, and he's doing great things. And then there will be challenge from the audience, like, "Well, you could have done it this way or whatever. " Right. And he goes, "Thanks, awesome. " Boom, boom.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
And it'll be in the next verse. And he just takes that knowledge and goes on. So even in the act of presenting, he's still learning. Absolutely.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
I've never met a great teacher who wasn't actively learning. I've never met a great developer who said that they were done or they were a master and that they don't touch anything else. My coworkers, Jim Larrick is this way. It's like you pair with Jim, and he'll discover something new while you're pairing together. And he's absolutely brilliant.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
But I did have the fortune. I had the fortune of playing a board game with him once. That is a fortunate thing.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
And he is one of those people that if he wanted to be an arrogant so-and-so, he could be because he's at that level, but he's not. And I think that's a beautiful thing. It's a losing proposition.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Like, what do you gain from isolation?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
You gain zero.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Right. And one of the things that I talk about is recognizing individualism in the context of the whole, right?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
It's letting those people be themselves no matter where they go. They don't have to homogenize. They do not have to conform entirely. And they can still create a cohesive unit. I think he's one of those kind of people. Like, he does it his way, has a good time, always learning, and you can present him in any kind of context and it works, right? So, it could be all junior developers. It could be all expert developers. And he's just there to contribute his part as him rather than as a facsimile or a simulacrum of him. And I think that the hero worship, the celebrity stuff. And subsequently, dogmatism that kind of goes with it is an artifact of us holding to a standard that really doesn't exist. And I think internally we know it doesn't exist. We recognize that it is a falsehood, that there's no way that Uncle Bob is Uncle Bob all the time or, like, you know, why is why all the time. There are people that have these external personas that are distilled, but that's not the entirety of them. It's the person. Right, right. Yeah, and even then, not all of us, I think that sometimes when people get up and they talk, they put on a persona, put on a mask, I like to call it. That term comes from some psychology that I haven't read yet, but I've heard that term, mask, that we have our masks that we wear. And that it's a little bit of a protective thing, though. Sometimes we do it because we're afraid.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Is it imposter syndrome, that kind of thing?
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
Well, no, I don't think it's imposter. It's getting up in front of an audience and figuring out a way to engage with them that isn't entirely natural to our personalities. Oh, yeah, okay, I see. And some people are more comfortable of getting up and just sharing and being very, like, here's my heart. Check it out. And others are more like, okay, I'm a little bit more guarded. I have to assume this kind of identity so that way I can feel safe.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Sure.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
Engaging with those people. You seem to be more of the, check it out. I find that a defense mechanism that's typically shielding shame, right, I'm not good enough, I'm not, you know, I don't belong here. So you put up a guard around it that allows you to defense and mitigate the amount of shame that you can be subjected to at any given time. I think this is why, I think public speaking is like the number two fear next to, like, death, right? It's something that humans really kind of confront. Ironically, we're also extraordinarily social. So we need to interact with people we don't know. We need to constantly have that. But then putting us in front of a bunch of people, you know, our brain just is like, you're about to be attacked by all of these individuals. So, yeah, a mask does come on. And I find that you need to understand yourself before that mask can be then kind of dissolved, not necessarily removed, but, like, fades back fully. And it can fade back further and further until it's like, well, no, this is it. I'm comfortable with it. And I'm actively trying to be better at life, just anything. And I think when you start to understand and see that in yourself, then that kind of mask, that bit of obfuscation of the real self versus what you want to present can go away naturally. And then people can accept you for you versus you having to deny you so that you can be accepted by others.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
So learning to love yourself.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Leon Gersing
conference speaking and presentation skills
So that way others can love you. It's kind of the way I summarize that.
Mike Hall
Interviewer, UGtastic
Well, thank you very much for taking the time to sit down. I appreciate it. No problem. Happy to be here.
Critical Insights
durable
"The best parts of people are the things that we suppress."
durable
"Chasing a semblance of perfect or mastery is a misdirected pursuit."
durable
"Removing ceremony and self-deprecation in presentations can lead to more authentic and engaging interactions."
durable
"Presenters should share their knowledge with authenticity and openness, rather than presenting as experts."
durable
"Continuous learning is a hallmark of great teachers and developers."