Developer Community And Conference Conversations: Mike Hall Interviews Zachary Shaw

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🚀 Meet Zachary Shaw, the founder of the Boston Sophomore Craftsmanship Group! 🌟 Hear how he's grown the group through interactive sessions, a mission statement, and encouraging participation. 🎓 #softwarecraftsmanship #programming #developercommunity
The Interviewer

Mike Hall

Interviewer, UGtastic

The Guest

Zachary Shaw

developer community and conference conversations

The Conversation

Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
[Music] tastic. com. Hi, it's Mike with UGtastic. I'm at SCNA 2013 and I'm sitting down with Zach Shaw, who runs the Boston Sophomore Craftsmanship Group. Zach, thanks for taking the time to sit down with me. We've talked before, but it's been a while since we've been able to catch up. How are you doing and how's the Sophomore Craftsmanship in Boston?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
It's going... I'm doing good and the group's doing great. We just had our three-year anniversary. Wow, three years. Yeah, so three years once a month and it's, you know, kind of going steady and great.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Let's see, new things that have happened?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Yes. I spent some time thinking about kind of what... I always had a particular specific philosophy of like the sort of events that were in and out and I was thinking, you know, in the last year or so about bringing more people in to facilitate because I've been knowing... I've been doing all the facilitation for the last three years primarily and sometimes I have other things to do or I don't have an idea and also to give other people experience because I was like it's important to me to, you know, I get so much value. I realized I was like, boy, I'm like getting good at this. Like, you know, like I'm building up my skill at like facilitating these things like that's something I could, you know, spread around. But three years is a long time to do something over and over and over again especially with life events that come up and things like that. Yeah, so I was thinking about bringing other people in and so I started, you know, at the end of our meetings asking folks like, "Hey, who wants to do a session? " And people would be like, "Yeah, I want to do something.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
" And I'd be like, "What do you want to do?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
" And they'd say some topic and I'd be like, "That doesn't fit. " You know, or someone would say something I'd be like, "That does fit. " And all of a sudden I was like, "Wow, like there's some criteria I have that nobody else knows about that I think is important. " And so I was like, "I have to nail that a little better. " You know, so I started doing some work kind of thinking about that and I was like, I was like, "I need a mission. I need a mission statement. " And so I realized that, you know, of the things that people were saying that fit in and fit out and didn't fit in were about practice. And so the mission and improvement, you know, like I mean I think improvement is kind of a given, you know, Software Craftsmanship.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
We're trying to get better, raise the bar, right?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
That's the theme of this conference I feel like this year. So the mission statement I came up with to frame for people who wanted to propose things was improvement through practice. So that's the mission statement for Boston Software Craftsmanship.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
And it sounds like that was a really important growth for you to realize that you had these ideas in your head but you weren't maybe communicating them as well as it felt like. It did. It definitely felt like that. And so it was like a really important turning point for me and and and I think, you know, I've gotten a little bit of feed positive feedback. I've heard people kind of mention the mission statement and like and it's, I think it's like a really good framing, you know, like why, you know? Right, right. So that's like, it's been a big question I've been asking myself.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Has that affected new members?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Maybe them having a better understanding of what to expect by coming to a group and say, "Oh yeah, that is a value proposition I would want to spend my afternoon, evening doing. " I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, I don't, I don't know for a fact. I do, it has definitely helped frame the sessions that we're doing and maybe, yeah, like it must give context. It is context for the sessions. So, you know, we had someone new, I've had someone new present and it was so much easier for me to explain what the expectations were because I kind of did the work and it was easier for them to accept it because they had seen a couple sessions and they kind of knew. They knew what the, they knew what the the deal was. Yeah, exactly.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
So, can you describe again how your meetings are? If I recall correctly, you, you did lots of interactive sessions, right?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Yeah, it's 100% interactive. There's no talking heads. I, that doesn't excite me and I don't think that excites the members who have shown up for the last three years because they like the interactive stuff, but yeah, it's all interaction. So, we do, we'll have a discussion or we'll do some hands-on coding or we'll do some other kind of hands-on exercise. You know, it could be just like we did a modeling exercise. There was no code involved. It was just like, here's a problem, come up with different models that can solve it. Lots of, lots of circles and arrows. Lots of circles and arrows. But sometimes it's good just to step away from the keyboard and just think about the shape of the problem. Yeah, I think there's a lot more to being a good craftsman than, than the keyboard.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right. And as far as the membership, has it, has it expanded, contracted? Have you gone through any cycles that you recall over the last two, three years?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
It's been growing in the last, I'd say three months. I've noticed a significant growth. It's always been a small group.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Has that been since the mission statement or?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
I think the mission statement is about a year old at this point.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Okay.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Or maybe it's nine months old, but it's, um, I, you know, I think a couple folks have kind of like, um, switched jobs and they've done a good job of reaching out to people at their new companies and bringing them in. That I think is like promotion.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
I mean, it's like marketing. That's what's kind of raised the membership. But organic. It isn't that you're, you're paying for, it's that somebody tells somebody, somebody brings somebody.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
So there's like a handful of people who have kind of, um, grown more interested in, you know, being more involved and they've brought more people. Are you looking at diversifying into any, are you, is Boston Summer Craftsmanship involved with any of the local events?
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Um, or are you mostly focused on, on your monthly meetings?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Uh, we're, we're not really involved in too many of the other user groups. We have two, two events. There's, there's Boston Summer Craftsmanship group. And then out of that, there is a Codan Cocktails event, um, which, uh, Mark Simpson, who's no longer in Boston, uh, uh, created. And, um, so that's kind of, it's interesting. That gets a different slice of people.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Um, but it's out of the same kind of, it's out of the same group of people. Just, you know, a little aside about Boston, uh, excuse me about the Codan Cocktails. It's, it's something, it's always, uh, interesting to see a community grow past its founder, um, to see, you know, the, the founder other steps away or moves or whatever happens, but the community, once it's established and fostered and properly nurtured to a certain point, can become a self-sustaining, self-propagating entity.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
In that it can, it can live beyond. So it's kind of like if you, if you work hard enough, it's just like raising a kid or a company. If you work hard enough, eventually it just kind of can go.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
I, I think so. And, and is that where you feel like, not that you're looking to step away, but that you're trying to get it, uh, Boston Summer Craftsmanship to a point where it can kind of maybe operate without you having to push the buttons every, every month.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
I'm, I'm definitely thinking about that.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. Is it, has it been hard?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
I mean, have there, had there been days where you question about whether or not you want to keep it, keep it going just because. No, no, I, I don't, that, that's not like a concern. I like it so much. It's like, you know, it's like a really smart, interested group of people and it's really fun atmosphere. So I don't want to stop. Like I'm not, I'm not, I don't, I'm not like sick of it or anything like that. You know, it's, um, I think it's like, I want to help people get better. And one of the ways to help people get better is to help them become better facilitators and leaders. And so I want to give some of that opportunity that I've kind of hoarded with myself to other people, you know, it's. Well, I mean, it, it might be fun to be able to go to a session and just learn. It is.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Cause I don't, I haven't got that opportunity much.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah. You don't, you don't, you don't have to go in and be like, oh, is the food ready? Uh, you know, did Deborah show up? Is there somebody locked out? Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Not that that happened to Gary Bernhardt. I mean, at a conference, you know, somebody got locked out before the talk. Um, so, uh, you know, it, it seems like the group is, is growing and you're growing with it. And that's, that's really exciting to hear that somebody who's started a community is still three years on, still excited, enthusiastic about what they're doing and trying to figure out new ways to even approach.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
It's, it feels great. Um, you know, I think in the last four months I will only facilitated one session.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
So it's like really cool.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
You need to go and just kind of enjoy what you, what you started.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Um, reap what you sow.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
I've, um, I've started, I try and keep like my expectations of myself low.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Right.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Which is like, I think fun for everybody. It was interesting. Like, but so I did this session on trampolining. Like I didn't know anything about trampolining. I was like, we're no one here knows anything about trampolining. I'm gonna act like I know what you're talking about. All right. There's, there's different contexts, but I'm not sure the context you're speaking up. So I was thinking about trampolining as a, uh, way as a technique in like first heard about Clojure. I know there's this, I knew there was this function trampoline and I didn't understand it and I understand why it was important. Nobody in the group did. So I was like, all right, here's a programming concept.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Let's figure it out. Let's figure it out. So I like set up the session and it's like all of a sudden it like exploded into like, uh, you know, um, uh, tail recursion optimization. And like, I was like preparing all this stuff and I was like, I don't really know a lot about this stuff. And like, I don't know how well prepared I am, but I came in and I was like, I was like, this is all going to be confusing.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Like this is to be bigger than I expected.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
But it was, it was cool. Cause I was like, we're going to figure it out together. Like I will have all this material. Like I think, you know, we can do these things. And like, it was fun. Cause it was like, my preparation was so like half baked, but it like somehow it like engaged everybody like immensely. Like that was the feedback I asked him.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
I was like, how did this thing go?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Like, I was like really unprepared. And they're like, it was awesome that you were unprepared because like, we all had to work hard and be engaged. I was like, all right, that's a weird strategy. So it was that, was that part of what made you realize that maybe it was a little bit, you're holding it a little bit too close and that letting people be a little bit more active and participant, uh, not just that they do the activity, but actually a part of the unknown, wait, what's your question? Well, that they got to be part of the creation of the content. for the presentation, that instead of coming in with a baked, "Here's what we're going to do, here's the concept," and you already know it back to front, you come in and it's like, "Here's kind of an open-ended thing. Let's do this together. " And then now they feel like they can come in and own part of the problem. I think it helped me frame the expectations for other people who are going to present. That's kind of what I've been evolving.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
What are the expectations?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
If you came in and were going to facilitate the thing at Boston Central Craftsmanship, what are the expectations on you? My thoughts on that have been growing more sophisticated. And so, you know, I think it was kind of like an "ah-ha" for me then, that was like, "Okay, you don't need to be fully prepared, and that's kind of awesome. " Because it lowers the expectations. I think some people were like, "I don't want to present because I'm intimidated by the amount of work and the expectations. You have to really run a great session. " And it's like, "No, you don't have to be so prepared, because we'll all help you. " Yeah, so it's not that you have to have all the answers, but you have to have a plan.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Yeah.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
You have to have a plan, and don't worry about how hard it is to prepare. Just spend six to ten hours. If you can do that, then cool, we'll all support you in helping you run the session, basically. Yeah, because at some point you have to have that first. Well, it's not about the first. It's that the expectation of the group is that it doesn't need to be fleshed out. Because we're going to have a great time, and we're going to explore some concept no matter what. As long as you're able to give us a framing, like a general framing, it doesn't have to be fleshed out. You're not the guy who has all the answers. You're just the person who's helping us move the conversation along. All right.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Thanks for taking the time to sit down with me. Appreciate it. You're welcome. And it's Boston Software Craftsmanship. It's on Meetup, right?
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
No, not Meetup. Google Groups. Google Groups. You just Google Boston Software Craftsmanship Group, and you'll find it. All right.
Mike Hall Interviewer, UGtastic
Great.
Zachary Shaw developer community and conference conversations
Thank you very much. Cool. Thanks, Mike. All right. User groups with lots to say, interviews and more. No way. Sharing great ideas in the tech community. Fascinating conversations, a plethora of information. Find out for yourself today at ucdastic. com. Thank you. Bye.