Daniel X. O'Neil

Hi, it’s Mike again with UGtastic. Today, I’m sitting down with Daniel X. O’Neill. You might know him as a poet and a playwright and a little bit of his work that he’s done with the open governments and, you know, a few little things. Right now, he’s the executive director of the Smart Chicago Collaborative and also has been to the White House as a champion of change for the work he’s done with open government. Daniel, thanks for taking the time to sit down. All right, good to see you, Mike. So, how does a poet and an artist go to become the man in the shirt and the suit? That’s like that Sprint commercial. We’re going to stick it to the man. Yeah, yeah. But you are the man, so I’m sticking it to myself. Right, so I’ve been sticking it to myself for a while. How did I go from being a poet and a playwright to where I am now? I guess I don’t see it as crazy and circuitous of a path as it seems. In the, you know, late ’80s and early ’90s, I was a part of the spoken word poetry scene in Chicago and around the country. I did a lot of tours and I wrote books and, you know, my mission, my completely silly mission, was to become the worldwide entertainment juggernaut of the 25th century. Hence Juggernaut Co. Hence Juggernaut Co. is my handle. In a lot of different places, although it’s too difficult to spell, so I’ve moved to Antonio. I mean, your degree was English and Anthropology. How do you go from being very much creative and expressive to what is now focused on technology? Mm-hmm. Well, I think that, you know, I’ve been doing that for a long time. You know, I did get a degree in English and Anthropology from the University of Illinois in Chicago. And, again, I don’t see it as that wild of a path. Anthropology is, you know, a focus on the study of man, the study of human beings, and why they do things. And I’m, and English, you know, certainly helped me as a poet, but it’s just anytime you have to communicate with people in any job you do. Right. So, I don’t see it as that goofy. And then, also, I do continue it through in a number of ways. I’m really interested in the archaeology of technology and the recent history of technology. And even, like, the current, you know, sort of explication of why websites or technologies are the way they are. Mm-hmm. Often we’ll see – Kind of, how did we get here? Yeah, why did we make it that way? Right. There’s always a reason. There’s always a reason for every feature – Mm-hmm. – that’s in every piece of software. And sometimes it can be a very idiosyncratic thing. Right. And, well, even if you look at just something as simple as the style of website design over the last 10 years and how it’s morphed and changed. Mm-hmm. And that’s, I presume, a very cosmetic level. I think we’re in the bootstrap age right now. That’s the – Oh, for websites? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. We’re in the bootstrap. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re not bootstrapped, you’re nowhere. Yeah. And again, why? Because it has utility. And because, you know, there’s so much focus on mobile design and it’s such a great way to do it. Yeah. We used to be in the age of TypePad. Right. That was, you know, in the early 2000s, the right-hand nav column was, you know – Mm-hmm. That was it. That was it. You had to have it. You just had to have it. That was it. That was the first time that CSS really got a huge bump. Mm-hmm. And then everybody started using CSS and everything got better. And part of the archeology of that, I used to be a lurker on the W3C accessibility list – Mm-hmm. – in the late ’90s and early 2000s. And it was all very radical accessibility advocates – Right. – who were trying to figure out what standards there could be for designing websites that met the needs of – Mm-hmm. – people with disabilities. They were just trying to put vision – All the stuff. – out. Yeah. And it ended up that the output of that was CSS. Oh. They thought they were talking about how to make websites accessible for people with disabilities. In fact, they were making standards for making better websites – Right. – period. And also, making 3D and shadows and all kinds of stuff that gets abused like crazy now. Yeah, drum caps and – Okay. So, you went from being – kind of having a mind that was like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” Yeah. And now, you’re like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” Right. So, you’re kind of having a mind that’s trying to understand why things are the way they are. How did that lead to you getting involved in the data front? Like most things, it’s a goofy path. So, as a writer, and graduating with a degree in English and anthropology, the most natural path would be to be a copywriter for ad firms, which would have been death for me because that’s a disastrous path – Right. – at least as far as I’m concerned. No offense. Even though I just said something offensive. Anyway – But for you, it would have been – For me. Some other people find joy in that. Exactly. Exactly. Maybe. I don’t know. So, what I did was I became a paralegal – Okay. – when I got out of college. And I spent six years as a litigation paralegal. And I learned a lot about business that way – Okay. – because you can learn a lot about – it was like a long and difficult – Yeah. – journey. Yeah. So, it was – Yeah. So, you learned a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I learned a lot about – it was like a long internship around how – what happens when everything gets all fucked up – Uh-huh. – and it goes to hell. Okay. Because things tend to – they can go to hell. And I’ve learned that they go to hell when you don’t communicate. Yeah. Because I was the person. I was the paralegal going through hundreds of thousands of documents – Uh-huh. – trying to figure out, you know, how the personnel matter got completely screwed up – Yeah. – and how a person was discriminated against. Yeah. And they – they didn’t communicate. I just had to wonder, did it ever feel like when you’re watching a movie and you want to say, “Why didn’t the actor just say that thing to the other person?” Exactly. And it would have just saved the entire two hours of – And then there wouldn’t be any drama. Yeah. Then there would have been no volcanoes or giant robots or anything. Right. Or lawsuits – Yeah. – of people messing other people up. So – and I guess the reason is because of, you know, humans are pretty deeply flawed creatures. Right. So, um, I did that. And then to make more money, I did copywriting on the side. I did, you know, marketing brochure-type copywriting. I did a brochure for the World Book CD-ROM in 1995. And, uh – I think I probably had that. It was – It was a blockbuster. If it came bundled with a peckered bell, then I had it. Oh, it was a blockbuster – Yeah. – thing. You know, “Click on to discovery” or something along those lines. Yeah. And it had video, I bet. It did. Yeah. It did. And that was the first time I had it. Yeah. And, you know, I think it was – I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. 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I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah. I think it was my first time. Yeah.